Filmore East Mix comparison

[nrm461]

Hi All,

First post here... this is more of a post question so hope this is the correct thread.

I recently came across the below clip comparing different mixes of the Allman Brothers Filmore East concert and was shocked how different the original Capricorn release sounds to the later versions.

Can someone shed some light on what treatments could be used in the mix to effect the guitar tone this way? Specifically the Mercury version has a “kazoo” like sounds to the top end that’s not in the original Capricorn (See time stamp #15 in the video description ).

thanks all

 

[zacknorton]

well the modern mixes are WAY cleaner and clearer which doesn't mean better but different.

There are so many moving parts here it's impossible to say. Variations in pressing plants, vinyl stock, wear on the Capricorn disc vs. new grooves and that's before we get to the mixing. all the potential plugins... multi band limiting insane eq surgery....

I couldn't pretend to have an answer more detailed than that. I remember reading some deep dives and watching some detailed clips of how Led Zeppelin mixed the O2 show. something like 17 tracks for guitar?

 

[nrm461]

well the modern mixes are WAY cleaner and clearer which doesn't mean better but different.

There are so many moving parts here it's impossible to say. Variations in pressing plants, vinyl stock, wear on the Capricorn disc vs. new grooves and that's before we get to the mixing. all the potential plugins... multi band limiting insane eq surgery....

I couldn't pretend to have an answer more detailed than that. I remember reading some deep dives and watching some detailed clips of how Led Zeppelin mixed the O2 show. something like 17 tracks for guitar?

Thanks for the reply! Yeah, I agree it’s a bit unknowable when you consider all the variables.

I just thought the effect seemed so drastic to me someone might be able to point to a specific technique / tool for that high end stuff. I don’t know anything about mixing so I have no vocabulary for it

 

[Bob Womack]

I'm a recording engineer/producer. I grew up on At Fillmore East. I read an article from Tom Dowd (producer/engineer on both the original and remixes) on the way he did the remixes, and then went out and bought The Fillmore Concerts. When the original recordings and mxies were done in July, 1971, recording consoles were in their infancy. They often had no EQ or redimentary EQ and often had NO EQ for the high end. As a result, what you hear is a blend of mics, mostly dynamic mics, with little EQ to remove problems and put each instrument in its place and keep them from stomping all over each other.

When Tom Dowd sat down in 1991 to begin the project of remixing, he decided to transfer the multitrack recording to digital. They did this, and turned the original multitrack reels to the Library of Congress and in 2004 they were added to the National Recording Registry.

By 1991 we had extremely sophisticated recording/mixing consoles such as the Solid State Logic consoles and the modern Neve consoles. All had really good EQs, dynamics, and automation but some sounded extremely modern (SSL) and some tended to sound more classic. Tom Dowd chose a classic Neve console with automation. By that time there were really good EQs and Tom was able to use the EQ and processing to clean things up and make the recordings more true to the original performances. He also discovered a bunch of stuff going on in the rhythm section that he'd never heard before and worked to bring that out.

Now, on to my interpretation and critical observations: Tom actually addressed the razz on top of the guitars. He said the original mixes didn't present the actual sounds of the guitars. According to him, everything was dull and dark on those first mixes compared to the actual sounds on days of the concerts. As a result, for these mixes he brightened things up, and that is what you are hearing. He also used the automation EQ to give more space between the instruments. He became fascinated with the way the rhythm section was interacting with the frontline and mixed the drums way more forward, but at the same time he seems to have backed off the bass and thinned it up. At the time he did the remixes, that was the style in the industry but that style changed a couple of years later when the Seattle grunge movement came through. Bass became more prominent and thicker again, more like it was in 1971. I went out and bought the CD version of the original At Fillmore East and compared it to The Fillmore Concerts and yes, the bass was fuller on the original mixes and everything was also rounded down by the original mixing tools and process.

If you want all the music from The Fillmore Concerts but with the mix style of At Fillmore East, you can get At Fillmore East Deluxe Edition which is based on the masters for At Fillmore East and Eat a Peach.

Bob

 

[nrm461]

I'm a recording engineer/producer. I grew up on At Fillmore East. I read an article from Tom Dowd (producer/engineer on both the original and remixes) on the way he did the remixes, and then went out and bought The Fillmore Concerts. When the original recordings and mxies were done in July, 1971, recording consoles were in their infancy. They often had no EQ or redimentary EQ and often had NO EQ for the high end. As a result, what you hear is a blend of mics, mostly dynamic mics, with little EQ to remove problems and put each instrument in its place and keep them from stomping all over each other.

When Tom Dowd sat down in 1991 to begin the project of remixing, he decided to transfer the multitrack recording to digital. They did this, and turned the original multitrack reels to the Library of Congress and in 2004 they were added to the National Recording Registry.

By 1991 we had extremely sophisticated recording/mixing consoles such as the Solid State Logic consoles and the modern Neve consoles. All had really good EQs, dynamics, and automation but some sounded extremely modern (SSL) and some tended to sound more classic. Tom Dowd chose a classic Neve console with automation. By that time there were really good EQs and Tom was able to use the EQ and processing to clean things up and make the recordings more true to the original performances. He also discovered a bunch of stuff going on in the rhythm section that he'd never heard before and worked to bring that out.

Now, on to my interpretation and critical observations: Tom actually addressed the razz on top of the guitars. He said the original mixes didn't present the actual sounds of the guitars. According to him, everything was dull and dark on those first mixes compared to the actual sounds on days of the concerts. As a result, for these mixes he brightened things up, and that is what you are hearing. He also used the automation EQ to give more space between the instruments. He became fascinated with the way the rhythm section was interacting with the frontline and mixed the drums way more forward, but at the same time he seems to have backed off the bass and thinned it up. At the time he did the remixes, that was the style in the industry but that style changed a couple of years later when the Seattle grunge movement came through. Bass became more prominent and thicker again, more like it was in 1971. I went out and bought the CD version of the original At Fillmore East and compared it to The Fillmore Concerts and yes, the bass was fuller on the original mixes and everything was also rounded down by the original mixing tools and process.

If you want all the music from The Fillmore Concerts but with the mix style of At Fillmore East, you can get At Fillmore East Deluxe Edition which is based on the masters for At Fillmore East and Eat a Peach.

Bob

I'm a recording engineer/producer. I grew up on At Fillmore East. I read an article from Tom Dowd (producer/engineer on both the original and remixes) on the way he did the remixes, and then went out and bought The Fillmore Concerts. When the original recordings and mxies were done in July, 1971, recording consoles were in their infancy. They often had no EQ or redimentary EQ and often had NO EQ for the high end. As a result, what you hear is a blend of mics, mostly dynamic mics, with little EQ to remove problems and put each instrument in its place and keep them from stomping all over each other.

When Tom Dowd sat down in 1991 to begin the project of remixing, he decided to transfer the multitrack recording to digital. They did this, and turned the original multitrack reels to the Library of Congress and in 2004 they were added to the National Recording Registry.

By 1991 we had extremely sophisticated recording/mixing consoles such as the Solid State Logic consoles and the modern Neve consoles. All had really good EQs, dynamics, and automation but some sounded extremely modern (SSL) and some tended to sound more classic. Tom Dowd chose a classic Neve console with automation. By that time there were really good EQs and Tom was able to use the EQ and processing to clean things up and make the recordings more true to the original performances. He also discovered a bunch of stuff going on in the rhythm section that he'd never heard before and worked to bring that out.

Now, on to my interpretation and critical observations: Tom actually addressed the razz on top of the guitars. He said the original mixes didn't present the actual sounds of the guitars. According to him, everything was dull and dark on those first mixes compared to the actual sounds on days of the concerts. As a result, for these mixes he brightened things up, and that is what you are hearing. He also used the automation EQ to give more space between the instruments. He became fascinated with the way the rhythm section was interacting with the frontline and mixed the drums way more forward, but at the same time he seems to have backed off the bass and thinned it up. At the time he did the remixes, that was the style in the industry but that style changed a couple of years later when the Seattle grunge movement came through. Bass became more prominent and thicker again, more like it was in 1971. I went out and bought the CD version of the original At Fillmore East and compared it to The Fillmore Concerts and yes, the bass was fuller on the original mixes and everything was also rounded down by the original mixing tools and process.

If you want all the music from The Fillmore Concerts but with the mix style of At Fillmore East, you can get At Fillmore East Deluxe Edition which is based on the masters for At Fillmore East and Eat a Peach.

Bob

Thanks Bob!

that’s exactly what I was looking for... do you remember where that interview with Tom was published?

Do you think those changes could be made with just a neve style eq? Any other advanced filtering / processing effects on the neve desks back then?

Interesting he described the old mix as dull or dark. At least on the guitars to my ear it goes from a more brittle bark in the hi frequency tone (Capricorn) to extremely warm and squashed down (Mercury)...

 

[Bob Womack]

that’s exactly what I was looking for... do you remember where that interview with Tom was published?

If I remember right it was Mix Magazine.

Do you think those changes could be made with just a neve style eq? Any other advanced filtering / processing effects on the neve desks back then?

SSL desks began having fully parametric EQs and gates/expanders and compressor/limiters to each channel around that time. The Neves moved into them soon after. But really, a well-equipped studio in 1991 would have had plenty of outboard processing as well even if the console was a late-'70s early-'80s 8058 console like this one I'm working on in '83:

That console had 33102 EQs with hi- and low-pass filters and three multi-frequencysemi-parametric EQ bands that were wonderful sounding and really flexible. Notice the pair of outboard UREI parametric EQs on the far end. By '91 the Neve consoles had equivalent EQs built in on each channel. By the way, this SSL 4000 has all those facilities and it is what makes it so much deeper, front to back, despite the smaller knobs (after a session in 2003):

Interesting he described the old mix as dull or dark. At least on the guitars to my ear it goes from a more brittle bark in the hi frequency tone (Capricorn) to extremely warm and squashed down (Mercury)...

To my ears the whole mix was rounder, with more bass and mids. Your mileage my vary.

Bob

 

[TM1]

When I use to see the original band, Berry was nearly as loud as Dickey & Duane. The dynamics of the original band was pretty intense but also everyone was equal and Duane was the certainly the leader on stage, but off-stage it was a six-way partnership and everyone's voice was equal, even the crew!
The last mix is way more the way the band sounded live back then.
Thanks for posting that! I think I wore out two of the original Capricorn LP's!!

 

[nrm461]

When I use to see the original band, Berry was nearly as loud as Dickey & Duane. The dynamics of the original band was pretty intense but also everyone was equal and Duane was the certainly the leader on stage, but off-stage it was a six-way partnership and everyone's voice was equal, even the crew!
The last mix is way more the way the band sounded live back then.
Thanks for posting that! I think I wore out two of the original Capricorn LP's!!

That’s interesting! I have been assuming the guitar tones are more accurate in the Capricorn ie less mixed/processed....

 

[K_L]

I bought the 'ABB at Fillmore East--Deluxe Edition' about 10 yrs ago after reading everyone`s comments about it on Amazon. It is very good of course, produced by Tom Dowd with all songs recorded at Fillmore East on March 12 & 13, 1971 except 'One Way Out' & 'Midnight Rider' which were recorded June 27, 1971 according to the back cover liner notes. So very cool that 'Mountain Jam' is included--one of the greatest 33:39 pieces of music ever!

 

[EpiLP1985]

I'm a nut about "At Fillmore East". It's certainly my favorite recording by the original, Duane led ABB, but also probably my favorite recording of all time (Cream's Winterland shows are neck and neck with AFE).

I own a few versions of the 1971 recordings that inform "At Fillmore East". My thoughts are non-technical, as I am not a recording engineer, nor do I have recording expertise:

1.) What I have always understood to be the Capricorn Master recording, i.e. the originally released version of the LP and what provided the recordings for the Capricorn CD release, is "livelier" to use a non-technical term. The high frequency content seems to provide an immediacy to the recordings that is exhilarating in many parts.

2.) "The Fillmore Concerts" release, the one remastered by Tom Dowd, is a marvel. The recordings lose a touch of the liveliness and presence but gain a fullness of sound and a lower frequency wallop that to me, feels like what I would expect a live concert to be like. The sound is crisp and clear but really "thumps", partoculalrly in the car.

3.) "The 1971 Fillmore East Recordings", the 6 CD Box set containing all the recordings from all the concerts, seems to split the difference from the original Capricorn CD release and the fullness of the Tom Dowd remaster.

"The 1971 Fillmore East Recordings" is a really interesting and informative listen. Not only do you hear the progression of certain songs as they approach thier Epochal versions issued on the album, but you also get to hear the individual versions of "You Don;t Love Me" that was spliced together for the original release. Furthermore, while some people have critiqued "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" (I'm thinking the AllMusic reviewer) from "The Fillmore Concerts" was edited from multiple takes or remastered to a lesser quality. I can only comment that the original single take seems to be the same on the original as it is on "The Fillmore Concerts".